Ever Wondered What It’s Like At PrivacyPro’s Academy?
We speak to Zainab Mahmood, Privacy Pro Accelerator Mentee who reveals all.
Zainab shares her experience of the Privacy Pro Accelerator Programme and the highs and lows of her journey so far towards building a successful, meaningful and rewarding career in Data Privacy.
Zainab reveals what it’s really like to be mentored by Jamal Ahmed, and why she decided to pursue a career in Data Privacy.
If you want to make it as a successful Privacy Pro and take your career to a new
level – You can’t afford to miss out on this episode!
Connect with Jamal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmjahmed/
Connect with Zainab on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zainab-mahmood/
Apply to Join the PrivacyPros Academy Facebook Group here:
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This is someone that wants to know you so they can get you from point A to point B. I've only been on the course I'd say about 10 weeks, and I am a completely different person. My confidence is back, it's like I'm finding myself again. And I'm genuinely so happy.
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Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kazient PrivacyPros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla. And I'm a Data Privacy Analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation as well as key developments and any decisions by supervisory authorities. With me today as my co- host is Kazient's CEO, Jamal Ahmed. Jamal Ahmed is a Fellow Of Information Privacy and CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. He is a leading Global Privacy Professional, World Class Trainer and Lead Mentor at the PrivacyPros Academy. Thank you, Jamal.
Hi, Jamila. How are you today?
I'm good. Thank you. How are you?
I'm super excited because Zainab is our guest today. And she's someone who's been listening to this podcast over the last couple of months. And now she is going to be starring on the podcast. So I'm super excited about that. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about Zainab.
Our guest today is Zainab Mahmood. Zainab is a Data Privacy Analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts and is progressing through the PrivacyPros Academy Signature Accelerator Programme where she will graduate as a World Class Privacy Professional. She is a Certified Information Privacy Professional for Europe, and has a Master of Science in Business Information Systems Management. Welcome, Zainab. Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
So, as we always do on these podcasts. Let's start off with an icebreaker and today's icebreaker. What did you want to be when you were younger?
I think I wanted to be a police officer.
Interesting. What was it about being a police officer?
So I'm quite active. And I've been quite active in that sense. And it's a thought of actually helping people and then doing something that's quite exciting.
Nice, nice. Um, kind of what age did you want to be a police officer?
I think it was as I was growing up, even now I've considered it. Maybe not.
What did you want to be when you were younger?
I only had one thing that I wanted to be when I was younger. And it's a bit weird for a five year old. But I wanted to be prime minister. And there is a picture of me where we had a non uniform day at school and I wore a suit because I thought if I start from a young age wearing suits, then I'm in that Prime Ministerial mind.
What did you want to be Jamal?
I wanted to help the world. What I wanted to do when I was younger, I just wanted to help the world.
Okay, so no kind of particular job.
That's the problem. I wanted to do everything right. I was always up was like, one minute, I wanted to be a teacher. The next minute, I wanted to be a lawyer. The next minute, I wanted to be a fireman. Anything that helps people I wanted to be and I realised I can't be everything and help everyone. So I need to find something that I'm good at. I'm trying to help as many people doing that.
Definitely, definitely. And Zainab, although you're not a police officer, you're working in data privacy, and what is it about data privacy, what kind of sparked your interest? What got you into it?
So I initially come across data privacy whilst I was doing my master's, I think I was under what I'm gonna describe as like a current misconception that you need a law background to get into data privacy. And that's probably one of the reasons I enjoyed it when I was studying it. But I didn't really push for it. Because I didn't have that guidance. I didn't have somebody explain to me, you don't need the law background, you're fine, you can still pursue it. So that's why I kind of stepped off. I think, before I even knew what data privacy was. I was interested in it because I remember going through this phase, I'm deleting their social media because I feel like they know too much about me. And I'll be like reading things why they clicked on these cookies even I didn't know what cookies were too many questions and I don't like it. And then I come across Jamal and the academy and if there is a programme, and that's where it kind of just opened up and I realised actually I can do this and with the right guidance, I'm doing. And now I'm on my journey. Now, I think it's the fact that you're helping people. It's not too far off from being a police officer, because you still help some people, you're still enforcing some sort of law, but you're helping people, I think that will be more vulnerable, because you're not only helping the company, you're helping its customers and its clients, too,
What about the PrivacyPros Academy, specifically that made you want to join and get involved?
So I spent four years at university. So I did my bachelor's, and I did my masters, you come up with a degree, but you don't know how to get from A to B, I've got more qualifications. But you're kind of just left on your own having to find a job having to pay for places, no one actually guides you through that process. It kind of makes you feel like it's pointless, kind of thrown into the deep end, you want five years experience from a person that spent five years in university. How's that possible? So with the accelerator programme, it's structured. So Jamal explained to me, this is what we're going to do. This is what we're achieving. By June, this is where you should be up. So so far, so good. I said to Jamal, that by June time, I want to be certified. And in the space of eight weeks, I was certified. The structure of it and having a passion for it, it makes it a lot more enjoyable.
What was it that really motivated you to want to do something and forget the PrivacyPros Academy for a minute, because you came across that because there was something that you either wanted to work towards or get away from? Tell us a little bit more about where you were before you joined the Academy?
Zainab 6:33bit. I graduated in December:
And before you joined the Academy, did
you have any doubts about joining? Were you kind of nervous about anything particular?
Not really, because my mom is the one who came across Jamal. So I trust my mom. It was one of them when she explained it to me like I know somebody that's doing this. I'm not too sure what it is, but it is something you're interested in. And I was like, yeah, and she goes, are you actually? And I was like, yeah, just give me the number. So I contacted Jamal, we spoke. I didn't really have any doubts, because I felt like it was something I did enjoy. It's something I was interested in. But when I initially spoke to Jamal, he sent me away. So he goes to me, you've got a week, come back. Just think about it. Make sure it's something you want to pursue. Yeah, jump into something because you're trying to escape the situation you're in now. And like at that point, I was a bit like, okay, but I really appreciate that he did that because it gave me a week to think about it and not just jump into a decision that I might regret later.
Yeah, so I was a little bit concerned when I first spoke to Zainab, but she just wanted to move away from where she was. And this was the first thing that has come along. And I was really cautious to think I don't want her to just jump into this without knowing what she's getting herself into. I want to be confident that she is actually interested in data privacy. She understands what it is. She knows what a career looks like. She knows what the work involves. So I think I gave her like seven or eight different tasks to do within that week. And I sent her so many different webinars and podcasts to listen to him. And I said, have a listen to all these things. And then if you still want a career in data privacy, we'll have another catch up in a week's time. Yeah, for me, it was about making sure that this was a right fit for Zainab and that we had the right programme for Zainab as well. So
I guess that's really good. Jamal could have said straight away, yeah, I'll take you obviously, the programme costs money. So it kind of shows that that the programme is there not only as somehow just to kind of for financial gain, it's really helping to kind of develop individuals and he really cares about people's career progressions.
That's something that I've really appreciated because it didn't seem like it was a chance to build trust. But that's how Jamal got my trust because he could have easily made money if he didn't care. But it's he actually got to know me, I think, Jamal, I think your words were I don't want you to go around and end up back by going around in a circle and coming back to where you started. And I really appreciate that because it makes you feel like if someone's actually trying to help me progress, get out of the situation I'm in, we can work together, we can get out of it, and actually have a meaningful career at the end of this. Yeah, that'sJamal:
exactly what it was like, the worst thing that will happen is, we go through the programme, spend another three months doing it, you give it a go for six months, and then you realise actually, I don't want this and then you start looking for something else wasted around nine months, all that time, all that energy, all that money, and we know wiser, every time I give someone the opportunity to join the programme, we both have to be very confident the programme is the right fit for them, and they are the right fit for the programme.Jamilla:
What is it that you really enjoyed during the programme so far?Zainab:
I think the group that I mean, you get a lot of one to one with Jamal. So we have master classes twice a week. And you're not actually just learning the content to pass an exam. It's like actually know what I'm talking about, which I don't think I know for a fact that if you gave me a textbook, I wouldn't read the textbook. It's very interactive. It's like, if I don't understand something I can ask, there will always be an example or a way to break it down. And to know that you want people that are in a very like in a similar situation with you. And we're all working together to get the best out of this as we can. That's quite motivating. Because now on LinkedIn, we're all posting different things. But you feel it like you're really happy for each other. And it's that community aspect of it as well. But with like the masterclasses is the amount of detail you go into, when it comes to actually revising for my exam, I wasn't nervous. So that's where I think I've got quite lucky as close. I felt like no, I know what I'm talking about. I just need to go over the technicalities of one or two things. But for me, I think this was the first exam, I sat and I've not really felt nerves, or Wow, I felt my nerves when I saw the countdown timer to tell me whether I passed or failed. That's when I was shaking. But before then I was fine.Jamilla:
As you recently said, you pass the CIPPE. So congratulations. And how did you find the revision process? Do you think that had you been just by yourself with a book trying to revise, do you think you would have passed as quickly?Zainab:
I don't think I would have because I think I would have got bored with my actual training or the first module when it comes to revising for the exam was what I found the most difficult to revise for because it was all history based. And it to me any other time, it wouldn't have been something that interested me. And I was speaking to Jamal about this. I think all of us had a conversation with Jamal going, how do we get our head around the first module? Because it's not that we don't understand it, we understand it. But if you've got questions on it, I don't know how I'm going to answer them, because I don't know it in that much detail. Whereas as you go further along, through the modules, they are a lot more interesting, a lot more engaging. And then Jamal goes well, you need to think of it in a sense that you need to go back in time to realise where it started, to be able to fully appreciate how far we've come. And then we're gonna explain that to me. And I started reading it. It was like a lightbulb moment. It's just about how we change our mindset. So it was the whole concept of, Okay, I don't want to learn it too. Okay, if I learn it, I will, I will know a lot more. And I like appreciate how far it's gone. And I think that helps quite a lot.Jamilla:
And another part of the Academy, the mindset training, what's that experience been like with the mindset training?Zainab:
I love the mindset training, I feel like it is probably one of the best aspects of the whole of it. Because you don't ever you wouldn't really consider it. So a lot of courses you go on, they don't actually tell you how to, I guess train your mind. They don't tell you how you can develop by just changing the way you think, instead of it is just content. Whereas with a mindset, it was no, you need to start thinking outside the box, you need to start, you need to stop putting constraints on yourself, right? There's a lot of times where I think even when I spoke to Jamal before my exam, we were talking about nerves. And he goes me knows no, you sound a little bit negative, you're meant to say I feel confident, even if you don't feel 100% confident. You've got to tell yourself, I feel confident and you could get through it. The mindset helped a lot during my CIPPE because I know you want to come across a couple of the questions. I was like I just like them. And I was thinking, Okay, I started to think oh, no, there's like three or four in a row that I'm not 100% sure about. And then I stopped and I gave myself a little pep talk and I was like wait, no. You need to change your mindset. You can do this like you are you've got all the tools you need. You're a privacy professional, you can do it, you just kind of have to talk to yourself in that sense. And that really helped. Because once I had made it through the exam, I went back and I was able to answer them.Jamilla:
And I think that helps. Those mindset classes help anyone, not just people who are going into data privacy with things like confidence and kind of self awareness and things like that. So last week, Zainab, you participated in your first webinar on behalf of Kazient, and that was the Ramadan webinar. How did you find that experience?Zainab:
That was a different experience. I've never done a webinar before. I think when I first spoke to Jamal my first words, were I hate cameras. And it was different, but I felt so good after I felt very empowered, because my like with university, I've done presentations, that's fine. But I've never actually presented or spoken in front of my family. And my mom was downstairs listening, my brother was downstairs listening. My cousin was stuck in traffic. So he tuned in, like family from everywhere, just tuning in and listening. Just Just to see like how far I come. As I think I mentioned this as well to Jamal, during the sessions, my family, not from like, my immediate family they didn't know I was taking this course, they didn't know anything to do me becoming a data privacy analyst. This was their first preview of what I've been doing. So it was like a really good way to introduce the new me to them. I was really happy during that. And like it gives you confidence as well. Because when I sat there, and at first I was a little bit nervous, but as it went on, you've got people asking you questions and the fact that I had the ability to answer them without thinking too much. It just gave me that confidence. Okay, you do know what you're talking about.Jamilla:
Jamal, what was your thoughts on Zainab? With the webinar lastJamal:
I was super proud of them, I think back and I look at where she started only about eight weeks ago, back in January, where she is now were in front of an audience, a public audience research. She hates cameras, she hates speaking live. But she was in front of an audience. She was wondering questions, she was delivering real value to real clients. It wasn't just her family tuning in. Yes, it was nice for them to support but the actual webinar was to the third sector, and they've got Ramadan coming up. And it's a very big time of year for them. And they want to raise millions and know how to do that without breaking data protection laws, and Zainab very eloquently, and very pragmatically able to explain to them the key concepts that they need to understand. And also, she was taking on the questions and answering them before I even had a chance to think about who's going to answer the questions. And by that I haven't got to the end, I felt almost bad having to finish the webinar, because I could see she had you know, a lot more to giveJamilla:
the webinar last week, I think everyone benefited from it hugely. And I thought that the panel was excellent. I thought Zainab was excellent.Jamal:
What do you want to tell us that you haven't told us already?Zainab:
When we spoke about the mindset, it was from the first phone call we had. So the first phone call that we actually had, it was really weird Zoom call, because it seemed as though everything Jamal was asking wasn't relevant to the course. But it was more for him to figure out who I was as a person. It felt very natural. And it's like, Okay, this person wants to get to know you. So they can cater the course towards the way I am. I remember that first call, you asked me loads of random questions to do with? How do you overcome challenges or when was the last challenge you heard, like, it just seemed like it was not relevant to the course at all. And as time went on, I realised it was because Jamal wanted to get to know me as a person to figure out how I learn and the best way for him to communicate with me. So I can get the most out of these sessions, that for me, I felt like it was a key certain point, because it's not like he's just trying to sell a programme. It's like he actually wants to see you do well. And you don't get that often.Zainab:
This is where I'm going to link back to the university experience, you just get a qualification, you just get a course. Whereas this is someone that wants to know you, so they can get you from point A to point B, I've only been on the course I'd say about 10 weeks, maybe now. And I'm a completely different person from where I was seven weeks ago. But I my confidence is back. I think working in a job that I didn't see myself going like anywhere. And I just felt like I was losing myself. Whereas now, it's like, I'm finding myself again. And I'm genuinely so happy that my parents see it, my family sees it. I went for like a phase where I think I wasn't happy at work. So I just kind of pushed myself aside, like my social life aside, and being able to have that backpack going out being happy not having to worry because I know I'm working on my route to get to where I'm trying to get to. It just makes you feel a lot better. With the mindset sessions as well. They've come at the perfect time because I know that the pandemic hasn't been easy for a lot of people. And to have the mindset sessions. It just reminds you we're all going through a rough time because we're all in a situation which we don't cross as normal. Don't forget, it's the way you proceed. It. And a lot of people I think, have forgotten that. It's everyone stuck in the same boat. If we were going to fit, we're going for a bad time, we're going to be going through a bad time, you've got to find that little silver lining. And I feel like that's what this programme has done for me is reminded me to remind me like you're bringing so much more to the table, Don't sell yourself short just because of the situation you're in. And I'm really grateful for that.Zainab:
Because I've gone through like, all these processes. And at first, my mom, I even remember, as soon as we finished the course, I go to Jamal, are we ready for the exam? Do you think we're ready? And he goes, Yeah, I think you are so I can booking it. And then I booked it. And my mom goes to me, it's been like two months, why are you booking your exam already? I go because Jamal said I can do it. If Jamal says I can do I can do it. And she was like, Okay, go ahead, do whatever you like think is right. And had two weeks off work. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna book it, did it. And when I passed, I was in a bubble for three days? Well, IJamilla:
think that what you've said, will be very inspirational to a lot of students who are thinking of going through the programme, and just students who are interested in data privacy as well.Zainab:
Because I think initially when you said to me as well, was there any like point where I had a doubt? I know, like, we've fit, it's an investment. And I go to my mom, mom goes, are you sure you want to do this? Like, you know, just jumping into it? If I don't take the opportunity? I might regret later. It can go one way or two ways, but either way is an investment. And then she was like, Okay,Jamilla:
Thank you. Thank you.Jamilla:
Question for you Zainab, how would you feel now, if you look back and you had said no to the opportunity?Zainab:
I would be miserable, I think I would be crazy. And I would have driven myself mad by now. Because I know when I when we spoke Initially, I was really down because of work. I was at a point where I was like, No, this isn't what I want to be doing. And if I died in that situation, I didn't take the programme. I feel like it'd be a lot worse from when we did meet. But now my attitude has completely changed. Because I'm like, if I go into work, I'm working to get out of here. So it's just like, Okay, I'm not too fast. Whereas if I didn't take this opportunity, I think I would have let myself down.Zainab:
Especially because it's something I want to pursue and something I want to be doing.Jamal:
I'm super pleased that you made the decision that was right for you, and you've joined the programme, and you're getting value. And it's really helped you to transform to now where every time someone speaks to you, you have so much energy radiating from you, other people up, that's really amazing to see. And that's one of the things that you can instantly notice from when I first spoke to you. So I'm really pleased to see that one of the questions I want to ask you about is we recently moved on to a part we're looking at the practical assignments. Yeah. How have you found that?Zainab:
it's been challenging in the sense that you have to kind of just get on with it. So tomorrow, give you like a little bit of information, and you just got to do it, and then come back to him and be like, okay, Is this right? I enjoy it, because I love a challenge. So it's a nice way of learning. And an issue you know, is that you're kind of stuck in the deep end. But when you get through it, you'll find and then as I said, when a group of people, we all just share our notes after and you learn off of each other. I've enjoyed it. And I feel like it gives you more confidence as well, because you're being given practical assignments. If I went into a job tomorrow, and they asked me to do a privacy notice I know how to do it. Whereas if I didn't have any practical experience, I'd be stuck.Jamal:
Do you think the way we approach the practical experience, when you're thrown in the deep end in a safe environment is actually more beneficial than if I was to kind of spell it out for you.Zainab:
It's a safe environment. SoZainab:
you're allowed to make mistakes. And that's something I think you reiterate quite a lot is that you're allowed to make mistakes, make all your mistakes. Now it's fine, because mistakes are the best way of learning. If I remember from previous podcast, everybody's mentioned making mistakes as part of the journey. And I think learning that you don't feel bad for making the mistakes. You're happy you made the mistake because you know what's right and what's wrong now. Yeah, absolutely.Jamilla:
So the last question for me before I know you've got some questions for Jamal, where do you see yourself in five to 10 years time first,Zainab:
same, I have got a slight plan, Jamal knows I want to move abroad. So I would love to move abroad in the space of five to 10 years. I do want to get my CIPM and then I am considering once I've gotten that maybe I say in a year or so time. So I want to get the hands on experience. Now before I move on to another qualification like never certificate and just see where it takes me like I know I want to stay in in data privacy because it's evolving. There's laws coming out everywhere. And I feel like it's a great opportunity to leave the UK. But I would like to move abroad and just build for my career now and just see how far I can get.Jamilla:
Yeah, and I'm sure with all your experience that you'll have in your qualifications and the privacy pros accelerator programme behind you. I'm sure you'll be able to do anything anything you want, whether in the UK or abroad.Zainab:
I think in long term I'd like to maybe do consultancy, but I think I'll cross that when I get closer to it. Because one thing I've learned is just take everything in stride, right? Don't make in depth plans, because God makes your plans for you to be honest. So just go with it. Definitely your best, and God will do the rest. Yes, yep.Jamilla:
There we go. There we go. And I know you've got some questions for Jamal before we end.Zainab:
Yes, I do. Jamal. I think I ever asked you this question. What drew you to the privacy industry? That what made you involved with data privacy?Jamal:into the GDPR, this is around:Jamal:looked at data privacy before:Jamal:th of may:Jamilla:
Did you have another question for Jamal Zainab?Zainab:
Looking at this course that I'm on now, I don't think personally, I would have come across a course that was ever structured, I did miss something out. When I was explaining it, I missed out the personal branding element. I've never used LinkedIn. Before I did this course, I had LinkedIn, I just didn't know how to use it. But now I'm posting a lot more often than I did. And actually, Kevin, somebody helps you build your personal brand. It comes back to the whole concept. What I've been saying it's not University is actually taking you from where you are, to where you want to get to. And that's something I'm really appreciative of, but what actually inspired you to come up with this structure for the programme, because you could have just developed like a course and given us guidance through our CIPPE exam and how to get it. But instead you've like incorporated, the master classes, the personal branding elements, the assignments, how come, you've done it like that?Jamal:
So one of the things I was thinking is about my journey from where I started off to where I've got to and I'm so grateful for all of the experiences and all of the amazing things that I've been able to do and to be a part of I get so many people asking me on LinkedIn on my phone through my networks for lots of little bits of pieces of advice. And when I was thinking about my journey, and where I got to where I got to, and all of the mistakes, I've made all of the money I've wasted on the wrong kind of courses going down the wrong avenues. I was like, you know, it was such a crazy time of life. last couple of years have been such a big journey. I would hate for other people to go through the same journey, and make all those mistakes and to get rejected, because not everyone will have the same growth mindset. Not everyone has the same mindset training that I've benefited from back in the past, you have that resilience, some people might give up. So I was like, I looked back at my genius, like, what are all the things that worked? What are the things that really made the difference and move the needle to me.Jamal:to spend years and months and:Zainab:
That makes a lot of sense. I'm grateful for that being one of the people on the call stack. I'm very grateful for that. Because the structure does help. It's like you said it's foolproof. And it's proven because going through it. I can see like myself ticking the box from the checklist. It does help a lot.Jamal:
I'm grateful to have the honour and the privilege of having you on the programme.Unknown Speaker:
Thank you. I do have one more question. And the privacy pros community, I think it's amazing. It's like you've got all these people that are in different stages in their career. And so you've got people like Robert, who have been doing it for a long time, you've got all these success stories like you've got Gbenga, we had was it Haley as well. And then you've got Emma who's pretty new, someone that I could relate to. So when I've listened to all these podcasts, and that you're able to speak to these people in the group chat as well. It's like, it's very inspiring. And it gives you a lot more confidence because you've got that around you. And you've got people that are either in a similar situation as you are people that are in a position you want to be in in XYZ amount of years. So I'm really grateful for the community aspect of it as well. And it's like you said, Everyone celebrates with you. And I read a post the other day where I think somebody from a completely different sector on LinkedIn was saying the data privacy community, they've never seen such a nice community. And someone that's like a community where everybody's trying to help each other. Because when there's an opportunity, it circulates through the community, and it's open for everyone. I've had people when they found out I passed my CIPPE, put out posts on my behalf, see if they could find me a job. And I was really grateful for that as well. So I think being part of the community, it just makes it a lot better. Because you've got all that support, and you've got all this good energy around you.Jamal:
Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons I created the community is I realised, when I was on my journey, there's lots of different study groups. But the problem I found was every single study group or LinkedIn group or whatsapp group I came across, it was people with the wrong kind of mindset. They just wanted to learn how to pass an exam. Nobody wanted to actually go out and make a difference. Nobody wanted to really own the space and make a difference and give back. It was, hey, data, privacy pays a lot of money, get the CIPPE exam and you might be able to get a job. And if you don't get caught out then just try or if you get caught out gonna join another company. There's such a big demand for data privacy, as long as you've got the CIPPE, you'll get a job. That's the kind of attitude that I saw people having and I was like this is not the kind of environment I want to be in. So that's why I created the privacy pros community with individuals who identify and have the right mindset, are really passionate about giving back. And that's what creates that powerful, compelling community that you just thrive off. And everyone that you see has got the right mindset. No one's just interested in the money. They're actually no one is even interested in the money. They, everyone that's in that community is interested in, really taking the sector forward, sharing all of their learnings and making sure that everyone else in the community is as empowered as they could be. And for me, bringing students into that community, having that powerful supportive environment is one of the biggest benefits and adds the most value to individuals.Jamilla:
Thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you, Jamal, as always, for being my co host. It's been a pleasure speaking with you both today.Rahena:
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, like and share so you're notified when a new episode is released.Jamal:
Remember to join the Privacy Pros Academy Facebook group where we answer your question.Rahena:
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're leaving with some great things that will add value on your journey as a World Class Privacy Pro.Jamal:
Please leave us a four or five star review.Rahena:
And if you'd like to hear on a future episode of our podcast,Jamal:
or have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear more about, please send an email to firstname.lastname@example.org. Until next time, peace be with you.